Melissa Avery-Weir 0:00
Audacious Compassion Episode 25 – Raman Philosophy
Hello and welcome to Audacious Compassion a podcast where we explore how to find compassion in the most difficult places in daily life. I’m Melissa.
And I’m Gregory.
Melissa Avery-Weir 0:38
And today we’ll be talking about demonstrating active compassion in the face of systemic injustice. So how are you doing?
I’m doing actually real great.
I am very much enjoying my days over the past few weeks.
Melissa Avery-Weir 0:55
And that’s in part because I’m not working for anyone during them.
It’s awesome. It is the result of a contract ending sort of unexpectedly.
Melissa Avery-Weir 1:06
We just did a podcast dap.
Melissa Avery-Weir 1:08
There was there was a dap there that you couldn’t see. Yeah, but I think last month I talked about this this gig that I was doing and it just you know, it’s I don’t think that I did anything wrong. I don’t think that they other than not, not quite giving as much notice as I think they would have liked to. I don’t think that there was like, anything that they were like screwing me over on. Yeah, but it does mean that like I’ve been just doing what stuff I want to do during the day. So I’ve been able to do you know, more work on Future Proof Games. I’ve been able to do like personal projects, and learning and video games, and…
Melissa Avery-Weir 1:45
Your Patreon has kicked back up.
I’ve been like practicing drawing.
Melissa Avery-Weir 1:53
Melissa Avery-Weir 1:54
Ooh. 3d modeling any?
Actually, no, I should do more sculpting in VR. That’s very cool. But something that’s kept coming into my head lately is that I can kind of afford to do this. Like I saved up a decent amount of money. And I’ve still got like a pretty big invoice coming in from the last chunk of time at the gig. And like, it’s very nice that I’m in a situation where I can get fired, essentially.
Melissa Avery-Weir 2:25
Um, and not have to just immediately be on the grind to get a new job ASAP.
Melissa Avery-Weir 2:31
Yeah, because that is super stressful. Yeah, it’s hard to it’s hard to interview well, when the clock is ticking.
I’ve been thinking a lot about how much worse it would be for me if I wasn’t lucky enough to have that, that egg saved up. Yeah. How are you doing?
Melissa Avery-Weir 2:49
On the flip side? I have been doing a lot of conducting interviews.
All right, big important business person.
Melissa Avery-Weir 2:58
I am out boss again. And so we are again without a team lead. And so I’ve been doing phone screens with my temporary boss who’s sort of my grand-boss ultimately. And,
you know, we–a recruiter gives us a resume, we say, okay, maybe. We send back some, some written questions that are like, “Do you have this much experience with mobile development or SharePoint or whatever?” And then they come back with the yeses and noes and we decided to do a phone screen. Phone screen takes about 45 minutes, which we ask managerial type questions like, “Do you have any leadership training?” Of course, the answer is always no. Tech people never get leadership training.
Read some books?
Melissa Avery-Weir 3:45
Well, no, they don’t.
Wow. I could–I could say–I was able to say, “Yeah, I’ve read this book, this book, this book in this book, and I support this philosophy and not this one.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 3:53
Yeah, no, no. Yep, that’s right.
Not even “Who Moved My Cheese”?
Melissa Avery-Weir 3:57
Real rough out there. So then you ask more interview questions. Some technical questions. And, uh, it’s tough. It’s interesting, because I help decide whether we do a phone screen sometimes, like, you know, we’ve done X number of phone screens that we’ve done, we’ve gotten three times that resumes, right?
whether you do a phone screen, or just don’t call back.
Melissa Avery-Weir 4:22
Right. And so I always worry when a “name” comes through. And if my grand boss is a little cold on that person.
I like really, really struggle with like, is this okay?
And we’re talking I mean, we’re talking about names that sound black or foreign or something, right?
Melissa Avery-Weir 4:45
Yeah. All women, though. Yeah, any of the above.
And there’s been like, very, very solid research. And that this is absolutely a thing that, that that first step people react strongly to all sorts of information that if you mask sort of the identity of the person–
Melissa Avery-Weir 5:03
That decisions get made very differently,
Melissa Avery-Weir 5:05
Right. And then, you know, like, “what is the gender of a person whose name is not American,” I’m like, “I don’t care, dude.” Like, you know.
Oh, like, there will be speculation about it before the screen?
Melissa Avery-Weir 5:18
Yeah, like you know, and so on the one hand, we want to give allowances to people for whom we do not think English is their first language. And so there’s, like, do you have the same vocab that we have for talking about technical things, which can be a you know, like, if you talk to someone who says that their senior developer, but they don’t know basic terms, that’s kind of a real ding. And so, like, we, you know, there’s definitely space there to navigate. But I’m definitely kind of, I feel like I have to be extra cognizant of these issues. And the fact that my boss might be biased. Yeah, unintentionally or otherwise, against these people. Also, it’s grueling, y’all. Like, it’s an hour per phone screen.
I don’t like spending that much time on the phone ever. And to actually have to think during it?
Melissa Avery-Weir 6:07
you kind of say the same thing over it. Like, I’ve got a template, you know, and I’m trying to make it sound like a template. But like, clearly, I have a template because I would be like, I have to have some way to at least compare people. So anyway, it’s, um, it’s interesting. I hope that we find someone soon,
in part, because I miss working with someone who was inspiring. Not that my other colleagues aren’t. But I mean, like, I don’t want to settle. I don’t want to feel like we picked someone for this spot, because we got to number 20.
And I don’t think you’re being from the stories I’ve heard, you’re not being particularly picky.
Melissa Avery-Weir 6:47
Melissa Avery-Weir 7:20
Thank you. So our prompt today comes from a friend of the show, and I’ve kind of converted this from a verbal conversation that we had. They say, I really like your show. But I have a hard time figuring out how to apply your ideas. I work in an industry where I see active misogyny all the time. But even being a small business owner, I don’t feel like I have any power to help the people around me. If I refuse to work with a supplier or bank because they treat women like shit, they won’t even notice. I’m not doing well enough to hire more than a temp employee and I put my own livelihood at risk if I call people out. How do I keep from feeling powerless? And how do I act compassionately instead of just feeling angry about what I see?
Yeah, I mean, feeling angry is totally justified like–
Melissa Avery-Weir 8:09
Awful stuff–people are an awful situations right now, and have been, yeah. Forever.
But I don’t know. I mean, part of the the thing is, what is it you’re angry about? What is it that is actually bugging you? So you can’t solve world economic injustice, by yourself, right? And even if you do the right things, so then it will take a long time and a lot of effort.
Melissa Avery-Weir 8:38
Yeah, but I think, I think they want to know what they can do about the situations happening right in front of them. Like, imagine that you’re standing in line at the grocery store, and someone in front of you is being treated like crap, you know what I mean? Like, what do you–you know, that’s not the world that’s just the person in front of you.
And I think that ideally, if you kind of look at why you’re feeling what you’re feeling, and what it is you want to be contributing, and what it is, you can contribute, and still, you know, take care of yourself. I think that that can lead to a point where you’re, you might still be angry at the situation, but you’re not feeling that like, pain of worrying that you’re not doing enough. Like, having a plan and, and knowing what you want from–what you want to help with, I think can can ease that kind of immediate like powerlessness that can actually hurt your ability to make a difference.
Melissa Avery-Weir 9:37
Yeah, so even if you can’t necessarily execute on that, but to be able to concretely imagine–if that’s, that’s maybe an oxymoron. But to to concretely imagine what it is you wish were happening instead.
Melissa Avery-Weir 9:51
Or what you wish you
It’s not to say, don’t be emotional about it be irrational, but like, focus that emotion, use it as a use it towards end.
Melissa Avery-Weir 10:01
how do you use that emotion if you can’t, actually, or you don’t feel able to
actually do something?
Well, I mean, part of that is that there’s this concept in, in a workers’ movements and, and a lot of similar societies of “solidarity.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 10:18
Which is that we often feel like, we’re kind of in our separate bubbles, and unable to affect each other, and that the problems other people have, are there, you know, there are problems that you can’t do anything about.
But really, like, if you say you’re a, you’re a small business owner, that whose livelihood is at risk, like you’re one of the people that is having trouble with this system.
Melissa Avery-Weir 10:39
Right. You are also–right, yes, you are also kind of subjected to the fact that you don’t get to call people out without being in serious–or it’s just like these women can’t, right?
And I mean, you certainly have privileges that they don’t, and they might have privileges that you don’t, and recognizing you’re in the same boat. Even if you’re in different parts of that boat. None of you are up on the top deck. And you’re all in the hold, right? Having that will let you be like, hey, what if I were in their shoes, like you, of course, can’t understand all of it.
Melissa Avery-Weir 11:17
But you can at least get a start by going Oh, hey, if someone treated me like that, yeah. What would I wish that person over there had done?
Melissa Avery-Weir 11:25
If they had–if they had been able to, if they could have. Yeah, and I’ve worked for some? One? One small business that was very new, and the struggle is real. Like, you know, there’s part of me, that’s kind of like, “Well, they’ve got a business, right?” Like, there’s a definitely a privilege they are, they had enough capital start one and have capital hire people. But when things weren’t great, they were paying out of pocket for, like, salary, you know, and they couldn’t afford to fire clients, you know. So, like, it’s, it is superficially easy to kind of think that these folks have no problems, or that once you own a business, you are in the Trump category of millionaire.
Melissa Avery-Weir 12:17
Flying free. But that’s not how it works. That is really not how it works. Being a being a business owner. And if the industry around you is steeped in a behavior that is considered completely normal, right? And, you know, my example of bias against names is one example. But
just imagine, right?
I think that you run in different things in like mechanics, auto mechanics, and different things in tech things, and I don’t know, hair dressers
Melissa Avery-Weir 12:49
Melissa Avery-Weir 12:50
Yep. So one thing I think can help is instead of like, like you said, thinking about everyone is being in these sort of separate boats, you’re all in this same boat. And that helps you think a little smaller, like, keep your keep your unconscious biases in mind,
such that, you know, you don’t have to solve the whole world’s problem. But you can, you can, when you’re interacting with someone, you can look directly at them. Keep in mind the fact that this is how women are treated, this might be how I might accidentally treat this woman, right? Like, this is all stuff that that is good to read up on. That sounds weird, like, read up on your biases. But
Like, but yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s beautiful to be like, you know, hear reports of people who are in the category that you want to help and so that you can better understand them.
Melissa Avery-Weir 13:40
And something I always try and keep in mind is everyone, virtually everyone I interact with, over the course of a day is an expert in what they do.
Melissa Avery-Weir 13:49
Right? Like, I could never wait tables as well as someone does any day I go to a restaurant without years of training.
Melissa Avery-Weir 13:59
All you know, the, the, the person that’s at the front desk, who’s who’s, you know, being treated like they’re just someone to clean the coffee pots also does–I mean, probably clean this coffee pots pretty darn well.
Melissa Avery-Weir 14:11
And also, you know, answers phones, does is a is an important–
Melissa Avery-Weir 14:14
Does their ordering–like I work with some office managers. And there’s much more, there’s so much behind that label.
The, the face of the heart and the sometimes the brain of the company.
Melissa Avery-Weir 14:32
At least the the reflexes, certainly.
Melissa Avery-Weir 14:34
And, and looking at people like that, instead of how kind of this… the worst parts of this world want you to look at them.
Melissa Avery-Weir 14:44
Can help you, like help guide how to treat people and how to help people. So it might be like, you know, “Hey, that so-and-so at the front desk is sharp,” every time you you know, every time you talk to that person’s boss just mention, like, “Hey, they they helped me out real well.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 15:00
the least smarmy way possible.
Yeah. Not like not like, “Oh, boy, that person you’ve gotten your front desk, I sure like dealing with them.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 15:08
Right. Yeah, don’t do that.
You can certainly, like help people network.
Melissa Avery-Weir 15:14
Yep. If so, if you see someone being mistreated, see, if you like, if you know, someone who could do that business with them be like, “Hey, maybe try so and so down the street,” or “I have good luck with this bank, or this, you know, whatever.”
“Let me know if you want me to give your number to so and so with this other place.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 15:39
Right. And I mean, those kind of referrals, like everybody appreciates them. There’s–
Melissa Avery-Weir 15:44
Yeah, yeah. Like, there’s no one who’s like, “You know what, don’t refer people to me.”
And so helping helping folks out in that way in your industry as much as you can. Because it you know, even if that one doesn’t pan out, there might be something else. I don’t know, you’re kind of helping offer people chances.
And you could also look at, just like, if you’re making purchasing decisions, look at who you’re buying from. Like, if you’ve got two companies, both of which are offering the same prices, and roughly the same quality. And one of them you feel is more in line with your values and the other–
Just make that pick every time and right. You can also even, you know, going back to the this like self empathy “looking at your own values” thing, you could put a price on “How much am I willing to spend to be better in this circumstance?”
Melissa Avery-Weir 16:31
And if it means paying X amount of dollars more for a widget…
Then is that worth it to you to pay a little bit more in order to to be helping someone that you like, and will feel better about rather than someone that makes you feel frustrated and angry?
Melissa Avery-Weir 16:48
Exactly. And depending on the industry, there are resources for finding those businesses.
Yeah. So like, pretty much any category you’re looking at?
Melissa Avery-Weir 17:00
Well, yeah, that’s what I’m less sure of.
There’s people of color owned, I know, there’s queer owned, there’s women owned. And, and not just owned, but various, like hiring or, or policies.
Melissa Avery-Weir 17:11
And so I know that there is a black game developers list because I’m on it.
But that’s also like, tech is weird, right? Like, that’s very leaning. There’s, there’s a lot of privilege in being and tech work. “Okay, I make a website that lists people of color who do this thing.” And that’s presumably not true of all industries. That can help at least give you some options of things to explore. And you can see, you know, like, what’s local or what’s–depending on whatever your constraints are on how you do your business, what’s in my area, and, and in that sense, you’re building up your own network, too. You’re, you know, kind of building out a web of, “Okay, these people’s prices were a little too high, but maybe I know someone who’s doing a little better who could work with that business instead,” right?
And I mean, in a lot of businesses, there’s sort of a “casting a wide net” thing where you’ve, you’ve kind of got the category of like, “Oh, I’m gonna pitch to this group, you know, this company, or whoever, and I don’t think I’ll get it, but it won’t take much time to do it.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 18:13
If you focus those pictures on that class of company, even if you’re like, I’ll probably never get hired to for I don’t know, Greek Orthodox women’s group, like, okay, cool. Send them a pamphlet anyway.
Melissa Avery-Weir 18:28
Like, if you–
Melissa Avery-Weir 18:30
You’ll at least be kind of expanding who you look at as potential collaborators. And also like, if one of them hits you up, it’s because they think it’s worth it.
Right. And so you are helping them out if you’re doing a thing that they want you to do.
Melissa Avery-Weir 18:47
Um, so yeah, that and also remembering to be kind to yourself. Wanting to help, wanting to do–to actively help, not just to feel bad, quote, unquote, white guilt, I guess. Yeah, same category of whatever. Um, that matters. I mean, we can, we’ve surely argued on this podcast about how much intention matters. So right, we can set that aside,
but i think, i think it matters and I think that you should, you should be glad that you want to, you know?
Wanting to help already puts you in a position where you’re going to make better choices, and someone who doesn’t actively have that desire.
Melissa Avery-Weir 19:31
And also like, like–
Melissa Avery-Weir 19:34
Be nice to yourself.
Yeah, if you if you beat yourself up enough that you’re stressed, or if you actually do something you can’t afford to do and for your livelihood, then you’re going to be less effective in the future at helping people.
Melissa Avery-Weir 19:48
It’s better to help one person a day than to help 10 people one day.
Melissa Avery-Weir 19:53
Right. There are some very good activists who have written about sort of the cost of activism and the–“self care” is complicated term, right? But like the the kind of almost codependence that can develop among activists where you hurt yourself to try to help others and then you run out and then you’re done. And then you’re completely disappearing from the space instead of having the stamina to to keep doing it for years.
is something that I think about a lot.
Melissa Avery-Weir 20:23
have any book recommendations for that. But
I think that A Unit of Caring is always a good person to read on self care in the face of activism, even if her stuff might not directly relate to your stuff.
Melissa Avery-Weir 20:36
She’s not a small business owner. Right, but aunitofcaring.tumblr.com
Melissa Avery-Weir 20:42
And I feel like Deray has written some stuff about this, although hopefully hopefully not just on Twitter. That’s Deray McKesson, an activist who recently released a book that I need to read. Yeah, but–
We’ll try and put links on the show notes to those folks.
Melissa Avery-Weir 20:59
So what have you been inspired by lately?
Well, I have been watching a lot of what is called “LeftTube”. A YouTube rough–like not official network but rough conglomeration of YouTube channels that tend to collaborate together that are generally politically left. And you and I are both dirty leftists and we’ve been sharing videos back and forth. And the one that especially–I think the one that sort of got me into looking at this community as a thing is ContraPoints.
Melissa Avery-Weir 21:30
Who’s a–she’s a philosopher and political commentator, I guess?
Melissa Avery-Weir 21:38
I, I have no idea how to how to categorize these people.
Yeah, but she does–Natalie Wynn is the is the actual person behind the channel. ContraPoints is a sort of a character she plays.
Melissa Avery-Weir 21:48
But but she does she did an amazing piece recently on “incels”, the involuntary celibate, weird misogynistic
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:00
Hateful of many thing.
Hate group and a self hate group?
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:04
Of themselves. Yeah, that is the–oh my god.
Um, and that that video was just, it was beautifully compassionate.
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:12
You know, way that absolutely did not apologize for any of the awful stuff in the in that community. But it did things it’s like, “Hey, this is awful. And it makes you do awful things. And that relates to other things that I’ve experienced.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:30
and it definitely related to things I have experienced in various corners of the internet. Yeah, we should link to that video and–
She just did a just recently did a video–
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:42
So I haven’t watched it yet. No spoilers.
Okay, no spoilers, but it’s it’s entitled, I think “On Aesthetics.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 22:49
I think it’s just “Aesthetics.”
And it is about
gender. A lot of our stuff is about gender. She talks a lot about, about misogyny and, and identity and trans issues
and queer issues.
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:05
She had a real hard time describing this video which is why I was like like the the post for it was like, “Well, I don’t know what this is.” So I was very excited to watch it.
Yeah, it’s I like it. It is it is one of those where it’s an exploration rather than an argument but–
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:22
It should be interesting. So ContraPoints is the one that I’ve been most following but there’s also Philosophy Tube is one that I’ve been watching.
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:30
Yeah it’s it’s that is definitely like every episode is like “Hey let’s talk about this current events issue coupled with this aspect of philosophy.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:42
And he said that like part of his goal of the channel is to offer free philosophy education, which is pretty cool. What else I’m Shaun.Yep. Just showing us to be called Sean and Jen but is now Sean with the you just person who tends to do like in depth analyses of right wing YouTube videos and discussing like, you know what, which parts of this are right in which parts are wrong?
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:47
Used to be called Shaun and Jen but is now Shaun.
Melissa Avery-Weir 23:55
With a “u”.
Just–person who tends to do like in-depth analyses of right wing YouTube videos and discussing like, you know what, which parts of this are right in which parts are wrong?
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:09
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:11
The absolute best “This is why Sherlock is bad.”
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:16
The British Sherlock, which, much like everybody on the internet, it took me until third or fourth season.
I very much enjoyed watching it, but he’s absolutely right. But yeah, he does a lot more like artistic cultural commentary, criticism, but he does very over the top weird dramatic videos that are–
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:34
–cool. And um probably Lindsay Ellis, who we’ve followed for a while.
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:39
Folding Ideas. Who did–
Melissa Avery-Weir 24:41
The… again the best, “50 shades of”–a very lukewarm “50 Shades of Grey defense,” the movies. That includes some of these other people we have listed reading dialogue from the books
in a way that is just hilarious. So.
So what have you been inspired by lately?
Melissa Avery-Weir 25:05
sort of piggybacking on that: I have been inspired by a friend of ours, a friend of the show, advocate of the show, Lucy Arnold. Um, as I was watching all of these LeftTube things. So so Lucy is a PhD student…
Soon to be PhD, who we’re all rooting for.
Melissa Avery-Weir 25:29
Yes, all rooting. And so as I’m watching these LeftTube things, and very you know–they’re just like listing these philosophers and producing these book lists. And I’m like, feeling kind of not smart? Like…
Yeah, I mean, I’ve tried reading philosophy for years and have not really succeeded much.
Melissa Avery-Weir 25:47
Right. And you know, I have this problem with like, Austin Walker, too right? Like I’ll listen to Austin talk and I’ll be like, “Oh my God, he’s the same age I am. What am I doing with my life?”
I don’t know
anything about Heidegger.
Melissa Avery-Weir 25:58
So it’s, I’m watching this stuff. I’m like, “Hey, Lucy, you quote philosophers sometime. How much of this do you–how much of this is, like, normal? How much of this do you already know?” She’s like, “You know, a lot.”
Like, wait, what? Like I go have ramen with someone who can like quote, this stuff is readily as these people do? It’s not that I thought Lucy was like, randomly quoting bits of–
Melissa Avery-Weir 26:27
Three philosophers or anything. It’s just, I think, in part, I didn’t really understand the entirety of of her education process. But what it has done is it is turned some of these philosophers from like, something that three British people? Three of the people we have listed are British.
Melissa Avery-Weir 26:50
So I’m from three British people quoting interesting people and an interesting ways to being like, here’s this cool person I hang out with a lot.
Who’s like, yeah, I read this stuff.
And can recommend like, which of the things you should read and what you shouldn’t.
Melissa Avery-Weir 27:05
so I asked her for a list of three books at which point she went into conniptions trying to–
Cut it down to three?
Melissa Avery-Weir 27:15
Um, and so I started one of them started Foucault, Madness and Civilization, or Civilization and Madness.
So you’re going to be listening to an audio book of Foucault on the road this weekend?
Melissa Avery-Weir 27:25
Yes, I am driving eight hours each way this weekend–seven hours each way this weekend. And the book is 10 hours long. So we will see. I have to stay awake. I’m the only person to drive. So. But yeah, it’s, it’s, I feel like it feels doable, knowing that like a friend of mine did it. Yeah, it’s like running a marathon.
So today, we’ve been talking about sort of how to demonstrate active, real compassion when what you’re seeing happen around you is systemic injustice, things that you can’t defeat by just sort of wishing it didn’t exist.
That’s something that I think hopefully everyone struggles a little bit with, at some point.
Melissa Avery-Weir 28:11
I certainly do.
And I mean, recognizing where that struggle is coming from. And that the reason you’re feeling rough is because there’s rough stuff going on. And that’s okay. But you don’t need to let it consume you. You can do what you can about it, I think is is real important.
Melissa Avery-Weir 28:30
And maybe like, in the way that I’ve been kind of inspired to start reading some of this stuff, maybe be inspired to, like, read up on ways to be an activist. So like, it’s, you know, we’re very commonly thinking now about “call out culture” and Twitter and like, what activism looks like in this sliver of moment for certain kinds of people. But there are a lot of ways to think about resistance that are not just the current American liberal way to think about resistance.
So there are avenues to explore there.
And there are a lot of little things you can do and still be sustainable and people to maintain your own resources and your own health and your own happiness and continue making a difference and continue being able to be an activist.
Melissa Avery-Weir 29:21
And, you know, it’s it can be as simple as, do I pick, you know, this this supplier of the supplier to I go to this grocery store or this grocery store?
Melissa Avery-Weir 29:31
If I am hiring a temp, can I prefer candidates who are disadvantaged in my field?
Yeah, people who have trouble starting, who need a leg up or people who you would normally be biased against, just because not necessarily you personally, but just the culture wants you to be biased against
Melissa Avery-Weir 29:53
I mean, I remember the first time when it’s like, you need something on your resume so you can get a second job. That’s it’s real tough. So being able to be that person. I remember who that person was for me. Certainly.
Melissa Avery-Weir 30:08
Well, thank you for talking to me today.
And thank you for talking to me.
And thank you all for listening. This has been Audacious Compassion. If you have a question or a prompt for discussion, please submit it to firstname.lastname@example.org. That’s A-V-E-R-Y dash W-E-I-R.net
You can find the show on Twitter and on Facebook at @audaciouscast if you want to like us or follow us or recommend us to your friends, that would be great.
Melissa Avery-Weir 30:38
That would be awesome.
That’s how we get new listeners yeah and if you rate us on iTunes, Stitcher… find a way to rate us.
Melissa Avery-Weir 30:49
Melissa Avery-Weir 30:54
I’m Melissa Avery-Weir and I can be found at melissaaveryweir at mastodon.social.
and I’m Gregory Avery-Weir and I can be found on twitter at @GregoryWeir or at ludusnovus.net.
Melissa Avery-Weir 31:08
And together we run a video game studio called Future Proof Games would you can visit at futureproofgames.com Our theme music is “Invisible Light” by Josh Woodward, available under a creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. Talk to you later.